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	<title>Comments on: Faith-Based or Socially Responsible Investing &#8211; Delusions of Righteousness</title>
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	<description>Personal Finance for Life in the Kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-16000</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-16000</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry Terri Lynn, but there are several things we are not going to agree on but primarily, that the gospel of Jesus Christ is what&#039;s needed for any lasting change.  Thank you for sharing your views, but I don&#039;t think we&#039;re going to come to any kind of consensus between us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry Terri Lynn, but there are several things we are not going to agree on but primarily, that the gospel of Jesus Christ is what&#8217;s needed for any lasting change.  Thank you for sharing your views, but I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re going to come to any kind of consensus between us.</p>
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		<title>By: Terri Lynn Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-15999</link>
		<dc:creator>Terri Lynn Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2012 06:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-15999</guid>
		<description>Paul, I never insisted that &quot;all Christians believe God was a man of War&quot;..I simply said many people that consider themselves &quot;Christians&quot;  believe that as they are naive enough to believe the Bible was written by God. I am a Christian who still attends Catholic mass every Sunday....although I don&#039;t believe the the Gospel is the word of the Lord as they preach.  This is where our individual morals and spirituality comes into play.....I follow this particular practice due to family tradition and my son is making his Holy Communion this year....but I guide him away from believing the texts of terror, bloodshed and violence of whole families is NOT Gods words.  I too, consider myself a strong Christian, but don&#039;t believe God a man of war....and carry a strong peace position as a follower of Jesus.  Why did I find your article a bit trite and cliche? Because it did lack an original thought or at best any deep thought.....in fact we cannot merely &quot;spread the word of Gospel&quot; and make a change, especially since the Gospel contains too many violent acts that certainly were written by sinful man to justify self-interest groups (war profiteers for one, which is ONLY reason USA has ever gone to war).  It suggest that making changes in our investments as personal investors would not help make the world a better place?  That sounds akin to saying that Paul&#039;s vote would not count at election, since every vote does not count.  (although with corporate-paid elections perhaps that democracy is erased) But I believe strongly that if everyone.....even if that person has a mere $50k portfolio, switches to an SRI, it would make a HUGE impact on our world.  You loose site of the fact that organized religion is at least half the reason for all the problems we have......didn&#039;t Bush say b4 our horrific attack of Iraq &quot;God instructed me to strike al Qaeda so I did&quot;, as well as USA&#039;s other unwarranted attacks on nations......and Hitler used some religious belief from &quot;Gospel&quot; as well for his equally horrific acts.  You loose site of fact that the only reason the USA is in this self-inflicted recession is due to a deep political and financial corruption which has been going on since at least WWII....always with Wall Street cronies advising our Presidents and Congress what is &quot;good for our country&quot; based on investments in war/weapons &quot;defense&quot; which has become an $800billion extremist regime of an industry.  Spreading the Gospel won&#039;t fix anything here, but people waking up and changing their investments to non nation killing profit areas will.  We need to take the polluters, war profiteers, Monsanto, Big Chemical companies, corrupt Pharma etc OFF our portfolios and invest is more positive direction rather than short sighted &quot;show me the money&quot;.  Amen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, I never insisted that &#8220;all Christians believe God was a man of War&#8221;..I simply said many people that consider themselves &#8220;Christians&#8221;  believe that as they are naive enough to believe the Bible was written by God. I am a Christian who still attends Catholic mass every Sunday&#8230;.although I don&#8217;t believe the the Gospel is the word of the Lord as they preach.  This is where our individual morals and spirituality comes into play&#8230;..I follow this particular practice due to family tradition and my son is making his Holy Communion this year&#8230;.but I guide him away from believing the texts of terror, bloodshed and violence of whole families is NOT Gods words.  I too, consider myself a strong Christian, but don&#8217;t believe God a man of war&#8230;.and carry a strong peace position as a follower of Jesus.  Why did I find your article a bit trite and cliche? Because it did lack an original thought or at best any deep thought&#8230;..in fact we cannot merely &#8220;spread the word of Gospel&#8221; and make a change, especially since the Gospel contains too many violent acts that certainly were written by sinful man to justify self-interest groups (war profiteers for one, which is ONLY reason USA has ever gone to war).  It suggest that making changes in our investments as personal investors would not help make the world a better place?  That sounds akin to saying that Paul&#8217;s vote would not count at election, since every vote does not count.  (although with corporate-paid elections perhaps that democracy is erased) But I believe strongly that if everyone&#8230;..even if that person has a mere $50k portfolio, switches to an SRI, it would make a HUGE impact on our world.  You loose site of the fact that organized religion is at least half the reason for all the problems we have&#8230;&#8230;didn&#8217;t Bush say b4 our horrific attack of Iraq &#8220;God instructed me to strike al Qaeda so I did&#8221;, as well as USA&#8217;s other unwarranted attacks on nations&#8230;&#8230;and Hitler used some religious belief from &#8220;Gospel&#8221; as well for his equally horrific acts.  You loose site of fact that the only reason the USA is in this self-inflicted recession is due to a deep political and financial corruption which has been going on since at least WWII&#8230;.always with Wall Street cronies advising our Presidents and Congress what is &#8220;good for our country&#8221; based on investments in war/weapons &#8220;defense&#8221; which has become an $800billion extremist regime of an industry.  Spreading the Gospel won&#8217;t fix anything here, but people waking up and changing their investments to non nation killing profit areas will.  We need to take the polluters, war profiteers, Monsanto, Big Chemical companies, corrupt Pharma etc OFF our portfolios and invest is more positive direction rather than short sighted &#8220;show me the money&#8221;.  Amen</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-15976</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-15976</guid>
		<description>Hi, Terri.  I can tell this issue is important to you, but I&#039;d like to make a few clarifications.

But first, a question:  What exactly do you find &quot;trite&quot; and &quot;cliche&quot; about this article?  What about it makes you think it is &quot;overused, commonplace, or lacking originality&quot; or that it is &quot;a trite expression or idea&quot;?

Regarding the clarifications:  First, this article was my attempt to debunk many of the misconceptions about investing and how it works.  That is, I wanted to clarify what actually happens when you invest in a company and how your investment affects the company.

Second, I took issue with the idea that it is more &quot;righteous&quot; to invest in a certain way if your entire life is not righteous.  This is where SRI/Faith-based Investing gets wrapped up in religion - rules of religiosity without a real effect in daily life.

Third, I actually supported the idea that you should invest in a morally responsible way if owning a certain company conflicts with your values.  I&#039;m not against that at all.  But I still hold that there are better ways to see those values put into practice in the world than by focusing on your investment portfolio.  It doesn&#039;t have quite the effect that some people might imagine.

Finally, and this is just for your information, not all Christians believe God was a man of war.  I happen to be a Mennonite Christian, and we have a very strong peace position as followers of Jesus based on His teachings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Terri.  I can tell this issue is important to you, but I&#8217;d like to make a few clarifications.</p>
<p>But first, a question:  What exactly do you find &#8220;trite&#8221; and &#8220;cliche&#8221; about this article?  What about it makes you think it is &#8220;overused, commonplace, or lacking originality&#8221; or that it is &#8220;a trite expression or idea&#8221;?</p>
<p>Regarding the clarifications:  First, this article was my attempt to debunk many of the misconceptions about investing and how it works.  That is, I wanted to clarify what actually happens when you invest in a company and how your investment affects the company.</p>
<p>Second, I took issue with the idea that it is more &#8220;righteous&#8221; to invest in a certain way if your entire life is not righteous.  This is where SRI/Faith-based Investing gets wrapped up in religion &#8211; rules of religiosity without a real effect in daily life.</p>
<p>Third, I actually supported the idea that you should invest in a morally responsible way if owning a certain company conflicts with your values.  I&#8217;m not against that at all.  But I still hold that there are better ways to see those values put into practice in the world than by focusing on your investment portfolio.  It doesn&#8217;t have quite the effect that some people might imagine.</p>
<p>Finally, and this is just for your information, not all Christians believe God was a man of war.  I happen to be a Mennonite Christian, and we have a very strong peace position as followers of Jesus based on His teachings.</p>
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		<title>By: Terri Lynn Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-15975</link>
		<dc:creator>Terri Lynn Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-15975</guid>
		<description>This article is a bit too trite and cliche, and too overly focused on &quot;Faith based&quot; investing rather than morally conscious investing; investing in our beliefs and what we feel would be best for our nation as a whole.  It also assumes one fundamental principle missing with many that consider themselves &quot;Christians&quot;....that the Bible is not entirely the &quot;word of the Lord&quot; as those of brought up with the Catholic faith and other organized religions will have us believe.  The Bible had been re-written through course of 1500 years by sinful humans, and in fact, is part of problem with people believing that somehow God was a man of War.  The 10 commandments were more likely written by the Lord, and thou shalt not kill being the most critical.  That being said, I don&#039;t agree with Paul&#039;s suggestion that investing in socially responsible funds would not impact the world as much as merely donating to cause.  If every person, for instance, made a conscious effort to be sure there are no war-profiteering stocks on their portfolios, the USA would have a much better chance of finally getting itself off the self-destructive perpetual war bandwagon, since the only reason we have EVER fought wars, and our MIC is so overbloated has been due to money and greed into weapons/&quot;defense&quot; industry at the expense of our nation as a whole.  People who want to invest with their morals and ethical beliefs do not care about the &quot;stock price&quot; of those companies Paul, they care about changing the self-destructive path the USA has taken itself with its horrific aggressive foreign policy, as well as helping save lives from cancer due to environmental hazards.  You are missing the entire pint of switching to an SRI, too wrapped up in religion.  I wrote an article on this topic as well, please read  http://terri-lynn-sullivan.suite101.com/responsible-investing-share-price-not-only-value-that-counts-a398212</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article is a bit too trite and cliche, and too overly focused on &#8220;Faith based&#8221; investing rather than morally conscious investing; investing in our beliefs and what we feel would be best for our nation as a whole.  It also assumes one fundamental principle missing with many that consider themselves &#8220;Christians&#8221;&#8230;.that the Bible is not entirely the &#8220;word of the Lord&#8221; as those of brought up with the Catholic faith and other organized religions will have us believe.  The Bible had been re-written through course of 1500 years by sinful humans, and in fact, is part of problem with people believing that somehow God was a man of War.  The 10 commandments were more likely written by the Lord, and thou shalt not kill being the most critical.  That being said, I don&#8217;t agree with Paul&#8217;s suggestion that investing in socially responsible funds would not impact the world as much as merely donating to cause.  If every person, for instance, made a conscious effort to be sure there are no war-profiteering stocks on their portfolios, the USA would have a much better chance of finally getting itself off the self-destructive perpetual war bandwagon, since the only reason we have EVER fought wars, and our MIC is so overbloated has been due to money and greed into weapons/&#8221;defense&#8221; industry at the expense of our nation as a whole.  People who want to invest with their morals and ethical beliefs do not care about the &#8220;stock price&#8221; of those companies Paul, they care about changing the self-destructive path the USA has taken itself with its horrific aggressive foreign policy, as well as helping save lives from cancer due to environmental hazards.  You are missing the entire pint of switching to an SRI, too wrapped up in religion.  I wrote an article on this topic as well, please read  http://terri-lynn-sullivan.suite101.com/responsible-investing-share-price-not-only-value-that-counts-a398212</p>
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		<title>By: Terri Lynn Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-15974</link>
		<dc:creator>Terri Lynn Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-15974</guid>
		<description>Jay, I give your thoughts a &quot;like&quot; overall due to your insights on investing as more of a spiritual link between the investor and God, and not even associated with any intent to drive down any stock price.  But you loose me with the example of lobbying corporate interest in a homosexual cause as being within &quot;God&#039;s principles&quot;.   While I am not personally close to any gay or lesbian people, I certainly don&#039;t think a good &quot;christian&quot; would necessarily oppose them....I believe a much better example of a good christian move would be to try to make a difference with USA&#039;s sinful wars by divesting in any war-profiteering stocks and/or lobbying against the Haliburton&#039;s of the world.  You would be really standing for God&#039;s number one principle and certainly one of the top most critical 10 commandments to live by.  &quot;You shall not kill&quot;. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, I give your thoughts a &#8220;like&#8221; overall due to your insights on investing as more of a spiritual link between the investor and God, and not even associated with any intent to drive down any stock price.  But you loose me with the example of lobbying corporate interest in a homosexual cause as being within &#8220;God&#8217;s principles&#8221;.   While I am not personally close to any gay or lesbian people, I certainly don&#8217;t think a good &#8220;christian&#8221; would necessarily oppose them&#8230;.I believe a much better example of a good christian move would be to try to make a difference with USA&#8217;s sinful wars by divesting in any war-profiteering stocks and/or lobbying against the Haliburton&#8217;s of the world.  You would be really standing for God&#8217;s number one principle and certainly one of the top most critical 10 commandments to live by.  &#8221;You shall not kill&#8221;. </p>
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		<title>By: Paul Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-5981</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-5981</guid>
		<description>Rob,

What exactly would the argument be?  Screening out those companies does nothing to make you more righteous or holy.  It does nothing to reduce sin in the world.  The time, effort, and resources you&#039;d spend trying to find &quot;good&quot; companies would be much better spent actually doing good and sharing God&#039;s love.  Christians will have a greater impact by doing good rather than trying to control other people&#039;s sin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob,</p>
<p>What exactly would the argument be?  Screening out those companies does nothing to make you more righteous or holy.  It does nothing to reduce sin in the world.  The time, effort, and resources you&#8217;d spend trying to find &#8220;good&#8221; companies would be much better spent actually doing good and sharing God&#8217;s love.  Christians will have a greater impact by doing good rather than trying to control other people&#8217;s sin.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Norheim</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-5922</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Norheim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-5922</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t there an argument to be made for not wishing to receive dividends from companies that make those monies from activities that are undesireable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t there an argument to be made for not wishing to receive dividends from companies that make those monies from activities that are undesireable?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-2745</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 15:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-2745</guid>
		<description>Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to check it out!  Attempting to artificially lower a company&#039;s stock price does nothing but make it a better value to other investors - investors who don&#039;t care about being socially responsible or who don&#039;t have any kind of faith at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to check it out!  Attempting to artificially lower a company&#8217;s stock price does nothing but make it a better value to other investors &#8211; investors who don&#8217;t care about being socially responsible or who don&#8217;t have any kind of faith at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Piper</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-2742</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Piper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 13:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-2742</guid>
		<description>Hi Paul.

a) Thanks for mentioning my discussion of the topic, and

b) Thanks for helping to break down precisely why many of the arguments don&#039;t make sense.

Also, regarding your argument #1 above: I often find the “But if everyone sells a company’s stock it’s share price will go down&quot; claim to be particularly faulted. Reason being that even if the share price &lt;i&gt;did&lt;/i&gt; go down, that would only hurt the current investors in the company. Future investors&#039; returns would actually be improved for their &quot;sinful&quot; investing due to having paid less for the stock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Paul.</p>
<p>a) Thanks for mentioning my discussion of the topic, and</p>
<p>b) Thanks for helping to break down precisely why many of the arguments don&#8217;t make sense.</p>
<p>Also, regarding your argument #1 above: I often find the “But if everyone sells a company’s stock it’s share price will go down&#8221; claim to be particularly faulted. Reason being that even if the share price <i>did</i> go down, that would only hurt the current investors in the company. Future investors&#8217; returns would actually be improved for their &#8220;sinful&#8221; investing due to having paid less for the stock.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.providentplan.com/298/faith-based-or-socially-responsible-investing-delusions-of-righteousness/#comment-2691</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:00:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.providentplan.com/?p=298#comment-2691</guid>
		<description>Mr. Bee,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and comment!  I&#039;m glad you enjoyed the article.  I don&#039;t have much to add to what you wrote.  I just wanted to say thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Bee,</p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and comment!  I&#8217;m glad you enjoyed the article.  I don&#8217;t have much to add to what you wrote.  I just wanted to say thank you!</p>
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